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楼主: highlander

股神巴菲特18亿入股比亚迪股份

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发表于 2008-9-29 21:58:37 | 显示全部楼层

highlander 君,关于能源,特别是石油,可能很多人被表面现象蒙蔽:目前超过100美元的高油价。实际上,在伊拉克,石油出井后的价格不过几美金,加上运费及加工提炼费用也不过十几美金;就算在中国石油的成本也不过40美金左右。认为电力成本便宜,其实是被目前的需求和供给情况蒙蔽。实现,中国目前已经电荒严重,如果全国汽车都变成用电大户,电价还能维持目前世界低价?在中国印度腾飞前,世界的石油价格长期稳定在30美元左右,现在翻了3倍,如果中国电力需求大增,电力价格又会如何变化?我认为“王传福指出:F6DM电动车的能耗100公里只需15度电,折合9块钱,而100公里用汽油是30块钱。”不过是刻舟求剑而已。

PS:巴老投资比亚迪,我相信他看到的是比亚迪的长期收益能力。而电力汽车不过是其中部分而已。

[此帖子已被 keiffer 在 2008-9-29 22:00:49 编辑过]
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发表于 2008-9-30 12:11:19 | 显示全部楼层

主持人:最后一个问题是关于知识产权的问题,第一个,比亚迪的双模或者将来的电动车,比如说和丰田的或者通用的产品做比较,我们比亚迪自主产权占了多大比例?

  第二个问题,铁电池的成份到底是什么?如果要把这个铁电池就是DM卖到北美的话,现在美国关于FIFEPO4,这个电池的所有人是在美国,你会不会面临到要取得他的许可?

  王传福:第一个问题关于动力系统,包括软件的知识产权,这一点我可以很高兴的告诉大家,完全是比亚迪自主的知识产权。大家有兴趣的话看看我们的展位,我们展位有一个解剖的车,我们这个系统是很简单的,这个系统所有的专利都是崭新的,这个车有632个专利,其中有一半是全球专利,这个系统完全是自主生产的。

  第二个关于铁电池,铁电池我们传统的命名上有一些错误,命名应该是正负级来命名的,不能用通道,通道命名发展太快,最后大家就叫不清楚了。我们铁电池,中间有一个体系的,也就是说是作为通道的,正级体系确实美国有一个专利,但是这个专利还在打,这个专利到底属于谁的还不知道,还在打,我想专利问题没有问题,等打完以后是谁的我们就买谁的,现在还不知道是谁的,专利费还不知道交给谁呢,专利不是大问题,我们会根据事实来做一些安排。

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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-2 10:42:14 | 显示全部楼层
时代周刊----Chevy Volt:通用汽车下大注于电动汽车 09/16/2008 摘要: 美国每年花7000亿美金进口石油。 前中央情报局局长 James Woolsey:“。。。必须尽快并彻底地摆脱对石油的依赖。。。”

============================================================================

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1841374,00.html

Tuesday, Sep. 16, 2008

The Chevy Volt: GM's Huge Bet on the Electric Car

By Bryan Walsh

I can see the future of the automobile ? I just can't quitehear it. I'm riding around General Motors' secure proving grounds in Milford, Mich.,inwhat from the outside looks like an ordinary Chevrolet Malibu. Butinside itcouldn't be more different. The test car isn't powered by agasoline-fueledinternal combustion engine, like nearly every automobilesince the first ModelT rolled off Henry Ford's assembly line in 1908. Nor is it a hybrid like Toyota's fuel-efficientPrius with a gas engine assisted by an electric motor. This Malibuis electric, powered by a 400-lb.lithium-ion battery nestled beneaththe floorboard ? an energy source that isnot only silent but entirelyemission-free.

Actually,what we're driving is not a Malibu at all but a"mule," a stunt doublefor what will become the Chevrolet Volt, a newplug-in electric car thatcould save a struggling GM and, not incidentally,change the way wedrive ? just as long as they can make it work in time."Developing thiscar is not something for the lighthearted," saysAlex Cattelan, theVolt's assistant chief vehicle engineer, from behind the wheel."Butit's so much fun."

Tounderstand why the Volt could be so important to two oncedominantinstitutions that have hit hard times ? General Motors and theUnited States ?all you need to do is visit your nearest gas station,where a gallon of unleaded now costs an average of $3.64. We're spendingaround $700 billion a year to import oil, with much of that money beingshipped to countries that don't likeus very much. When we burn all thatimported oil, we release nearly 2 milliontons of carbon dioxide intothe atmosphere each year, heating up the planet.Those twin trends can'tcontinue, and the solution "is to move away from oil as quickly and asdevastatingly as possible," according to former CIAdirector turnedgreen warrior James Woolsey.

GMis hardly the only major automaker to explore electrics as the waytomake that happen; in recent months every major internationalautomaker hasannounced plans to produce plug-in hybrids, semi-electriccars that can berecharged from a wall socket, like the Volt. But it isGM ? which has seenrevenues vanish as Americans stampede away from SUVsand other gas gluttons ?that is pursuing the most ambitious program.The company does not have a happyhistory with electrics, havingproduced the battery-powered EV1 inthe 1990s only to discontinue it in1999. But this time GM has stakedits future on the Volt, promising to have itin showrooms by the end of2010 ? far quicker than the pace of development fora standard car, letalone one whose battery does not technically exist yet."This is not achoice," says Rebecca Lindland, an auto analyst forthe research firmGlobal Insight. "This is necessary for theirsurvival." And in a warming world, perhaps ours too.

Underthe hood, Bob Lutz is not your typical green. The former Marinepilot ?who owns a pair of surplus military jets he likes to fly ? probablyhasa carbon footprint half the size of Michigan.Butit is the gravelly Lutz, GM's vice chairman for global productdevelopment,who is the driving force behind the Volt. Lutz worked inthe auto industry fordecades, left to run the battery company ExideTechnologies and returned to GMin 2001 full of ideas. His dream was todevelop an all-electric car that wouldbe powered by lithium-ionbatteries similar to the kind now used in cell phonesand laptops. Mostcurrent hybrids use nickel-metal-hydride batteries ? lessexpensive, butalso less powerful. In 2003 a Silicon Valleystart-upnamed Tesla Motors announced it would produce a $100,000lithium-ion-poweredsports car, and that helped galvanize Lutz. "If someguy in California can do it, tome it shows that this is certifiable technology," he says.

GMas a whole shared that confidence and at the 2007 Detroit AutoShowunveiled an early concept-car version of the Volt. To the surpriseof evenLutz, it was the hit of the show. Other hybrids may offer fuelefficiency, butthe Volt would go several steps further. A traditionalhybrid like the Priushas two means of propulsion: one electric motorrun by a battery and one enginerun by gasoline. The battery can't takeyou very far ? maybe 7 or 8 miles ?which is why the gas engine kicks inso often. But as you drive, the batterydoes pick up extra juice, mostlycourtesy of what's known as regenerativebraking ? collecting the heatgenerated every time you hit the brakes,converting it to electricityand storing it in the battery. The result: lessgas used on every trip.

TheVolt will rely on its electric motor, powered by its new battery,andwill go up to 40 miles without using a drop of gas. For the nearly80% ofAmericans who drive less than 40 miles a day, that would meanthey couldeffectively eliminate gasoline from their lives. After 40miles, the Volt's gasengine switches on, but unlike the Prius', itdoesn't make the car move aninch. Rather, it generates electricity andfeeds it to the battery, much theway an emergency generator in ahospital keeps the lights on during a blackout.This allows you to go anadditional several hundred miles before you needeither a fill-up or acharge-up. "With [past electrics] people had tochange the way theylived," says Andrew Farah, the Volt's chief engineer."I want a vehiclethat doesn't ask them to change at all."

(See photos of the dozen most important cars of all time here.) (Check out the 50 worst cars of all time here.)

GMalways knew that the hardest part of building the Volt wouldbeharnessing the still young lithium-ion technology to create the rightbatteryfor the job. In a normal development process, GM would work withbatterymakersto design and test the power packs, then begin making thecar itself. But thesearen't normal times at GM, a company that lost$15.5 billion in the secondquarter of 2008 alone; that surrendered theaura of technological leadership toToyota;thatfinds itself squeezed between tightening fuel-economy standards anda fleetthat is still shifting from trucks and SUVs. So the order wentout to designthe batteries and the car simultaneously, with the aim ofputting Volts forsale in the "tens of thousands," according to Lutz, bythe end of2010.

OnSept. 16, 2008, GM's 100th birthday, the company further committedtoits self-imposed deadline by unveiling the final production design ofthe Volt:a sleek and aerodynamic body that still looks more like afamily sedan than acar of the future. Now it will be up to the team inthe company's advancedbattery lab to make good on the 2010 pledge.

Thatunit, led by engineer Denise Gray, is currently puttingvariouslithium-ion modules through their paces, cycling them throughcharges andtesting them in warm and cold conditions, with the aim ofensuring the packscan run safely for at least 150,000 miles of driving.The technology has hadits problems in other applications ? recall thelithium-ion batteries thatcaught on fire in Sony laptops in 2006. Butso far, GM says, theirs areperforming well, an assessment confirmed byoutside analysts. The test packsI'm shown have gone through theequivalent of about 22,000 miles of driving,and the peppy Gray ? whoseems to be lithium-ion-powered herself ? says they'restill goingstrong.

Evenif the technology is ready by the end of 2010, critics doubtthatmanufacturers will be able to produce the batteries at scale bythen ? orcheaply enough to make the Volt remotely affordable. (Lutzsays he's"shooting for $40,000 or less," which would still be a stiffpremiumfor what is, high tech aside, a family car.) Menahem Anderman,the founder ofTotal Battery Consulting, believes that it should take GMfour to five years todevelop and test new lithium-ion packs. "I'd liketo be wrong," hesays. "But it's difficult to see how they can succeed."

Toyota, GM's bête noire, seems to agree. Six months after GMunveiled the Volt concept in 2007, Toyotaannouncedit was already test-driving plug-in hybrids ? cars that adhere tothetwo-engine model of all hybrids but allow the battery to plug intothe grid andpick up an extra charge while parked. Toyotahasbeen as quiet about its plug-in plans as GM has been loud about theVolt,but it does seem that the Japanese company takes a more skepticalview oflithium technology. "Our thinking is of a smaller battery with alowerinitial cost [for the consumer]," says Tasatami Takimoto, Toyota's executive vice president for greentech.

Nomatter when the Volt hits the showrooms, it seems unlikely to appearinlarge numbers right away. In a July filing with the National HighwayTrafficSafety Administration, GM said the Volt and other plug-ins wouldbe"low-volume applications" until 2015 and that the governmentshouldn'ttake the technology into account when devising new fuel-economyrules.To Lutz, any initial success of the Volt matters less than GM'sabilityto improve and adapt the car's system across its entire fleet."This isgeneration-one technology, and it's been developed very fast,"he says."Generation two is already in the hopper, and generation threeis beingworked on."

GM? and the rest of the auto industry ? can't go through thosegenerationsfast enough. More than hydrogen fuel cells (perpetually 10 to 15yearsoff) and cellulosic ethanol (ditto), electric cars represent apromisingnear-term solution to America'soiladdiction. The infrastructure to support electric cars exists today ?it'scalled the electric grid, and we can all tap into it in our homes.Electricityis far cheaper than the cheapest oil ? plug-ins generallyrun on the equivalentof 75 cents a gallon. Even with America'scurrentelectrical supply, which is more than 50% coal-generated, switchingtoplug-ins will reduce greenhouse gases, and as the grid gets cleanerandcleaner, those savings will only increase. A joint study by theElectric PowerResearch Institute and the Natural Resources DefenseCouncil estimated that by2050, widespread adoption of plug-ins couldreduce greenhouse-gas emissions by450 million metric tons annually ?equivalent to removing 82.5 millionpassenger cars from the road.

Norwould plug-ins overwhelm the electrical grid. Because utilities needtokeep excess capacity available to meet rare peak-power events ? a bitlike ahotel holding 20 extra empty rooms for a convention that happensonce a year ?there's plenty of electricity to power plug-ins, providedthey charge atoff-peak times. A study by the Pacific National NorthwestLaboratory found thatthe grid could power 73% of the nation's car fleetwithout adding a single newplant, provided most of the charging wasdone at night.

TheVolt may not be the only way to kick the oil habit, but thesheerexcitement the unfinished car has generated ? more than 30,000people havejoined an unofficial waiting list ? indicates that GM hastaken the lead in therace for tomorrow's car. The real question may bewhether the company, stillbleeding revenue in a depressed market, cansurvive until the Volt arrives.Lutz has no doubt. "This is the lastprogram we would ever cut," heinsists. "Even as we face the GrimReaper, we would still be spendingmoney on the Volt." Let's hope so.When it comes to the Volt, what's goodfor General Motors could onceagain be good for America.

? With reporting by Coco Masters, Yuki Oda and Michiko Toyama / Tokyo

[此帖子已被 highlander 在 2008-10-2 10:56:47 编辑过]
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-3 11:01:49 | 显示全部楼层
shijan你好, 1。BYD车销量确实不错,原因何在? 2。有链接吗?搜了一下“汽车论坛+F3“, 有太多。。。 多谢。。。 [此帖子已被 highlander 在 2008-10-3 11:04:35 编辑过]
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-4 12:56:56 | 显示全部楼层
看来shijan兄是内行: 1BYD对市场,消费者的心理把握是很有一套的。另外成本控制也不错。 2F3 上市已有3/4年了,F3的质量有很大改进吗?其发动机/变速箱等大件可靠吗?相比吉利/齐瑞等,比亚迪质量进步快还是慢? 3。国外品牌中,质量以丰田/本田最佳,现代/起亚靠后。F3现代/起亚相比如何?如果比亚迪不能达到至少现代/起亚的水平,其电动车将很难打开欧美主流市场。只有诸如环保人士等会感兴趣。 4F3的成功看样子有一定偶然性,需进一步考察F6/F0 [此帖子已被 highlander 在 2008-10-4 13:58:48 编辑过]
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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-5 13:36:38 | 显示全部楼层
另外,赚两百万美元的机会: 巴菲特的最新传记《滚雪球:沃伦?巴菲特和他的财富人生》 感谢福探前几天提到此书。我感到此书很值得一看。作者花了数千小时采访巴菲特, 其信息量大大多于赵丹阳先生从他花211万美元买来的午餐上能得到的。 全书近一千页。。。
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发表于 2008-10-6 13:21:53 | 显示全部楼层

个人以为A股市场上的600478有机会!

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 楼主| 发表于 2008-10-7 16:52:22 | 显示全部楼层
感谢各位参加讨论。 BYD 是Charlie Munger 先发现,推荐给巴老的。 另提醒一下,国际经济形势近期内对BYD的电池/手机业务可能有较大的负面影响。
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发表于 2008-10-7 22:53:02 | 显示全部楼层

看到阳光兄上面的表述,我也凑几句。

个人的理解,巴菲特此举主要是对BYD王传福的经营团队在短短几年内就进入中国轿车业前端历史绩效所显露出的竞争优势的信任,而电动汽车未来可能的突破则只是“锦上添花”,而这一期待是有理由的,因为BYD原本是做电池的,这正是它不同于一般轿车企业的最大潜在优势。在具有了成功的经营基础上由于信任其竞争能力而可以信任其一定的超额前景,这与我们以前对如重庆啤酒在低位时的投资选股思路有异曲同工之处。

至于电动汽车,我也跟踪了一定时间。简单说,现在的车用动力电池技术在商业上并未很成熟。其最关键的地方,可能不是阳光兄说的“重量、充电时间、寿命”,这些方面早解决了或早不是问题。重量上,轿车用的动力电池现在已比汽油发动机轻很多;充电时间更不是问题,因为商业模式上不是让车主自己充电,而是到充电站去换电池(两分钟即可),就象以前换煤气罐一样(国家电网已经在几个大城市试点建设充电站了,晚间集中充电,使电网运行更加平稳,前面有介绍);耐用上,现在的锂电池已经做到可反复充电1000次以上了。

电动汽车的核心技术是动力电池,其它部分以现有的技术看都太简单了。车用动力电池在技术上公认的最主要的衡量指标为:“高容量”、“高安全”及“低成本”。它们要全部达标往往是矛盾的。BYD号称其铁电池已经全部达到商用,但这可能还需要时间和国家有关部门的严格测定。此外,相关的配套建设也是个问题,例如电动汽车要普及,充电站必须象现在加油站那样布点,这也是笔不小的投资(但这可能是另外一个新行业了)。

继续跟踪吧!

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发表于 2008-10-7 23:16:42 | 显示全部楼层
巴菲特此举主要是对BYD王传福的经营团队在短短几年内就进入中国轿车业前端历史绩效所显露出的竞争优势的信任,福探的认识我有一点不同想法,也许是吉利掌门人的气质吸引了我,使我对祖国的民族汽车业有了一个长久的关注,平时一直关注几个民族品牌:中华、奇瑞、吉利、比亚迪。对比亚迪的造车,我的认识是:比亚迪成功打入传统汽车行业是靠王传福对进入时间的精准把握,及对国人性格的准确把握,比亚迪F3的热销完全是占了花冠的光及国人的心理作用。比亚迪在汽车上是没有一点核心技术的,这是每个关心民族汽车工业的的车友的共设。F3让比亚迪在汽车工业顺利的入了门,但着传统汽车领域的竞争将是十分的残酷。比亚迪要在他们中间脱颖而出需要技术的积累,而这一点上它还没有。比亚迪进入轿车前端的竞争优势是占了天时、地利的光,这种优势不会长久,甚至说从F6就看出倪端。F31.6成功上市后比亚迪推出它自己研发的1.8发动机F3,但市面上不曾看到几辆,而吉利的CVVT1.8发动机已跑遍大江南北。一个没有核心技术的汽车企业我总是不大放心。
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